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Path: news.cern.ch!danpop
From: [e-mail] (Dan Pop)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: Are you really my colleagues?!?
Date: 18 Apr 96 08:19:34 GMT
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
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In <4l4n4i$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jimen Ching) writes:

>Kazimir Kylheku ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>This newsgroup is for the discussion of the C language, not for the discussion
>>of how to do your laundry or feed your dog with the C language.
>
>Then the question begged to be asked is "Which newsgroup should I go
>to if I want to discuss how to use the C language to do my laundry and
>feed my dog?"  ;-)

alt.clothing.* and rec.pets.dogs.misc, of course :-)
>
>>The lexical
>>properties, syntax and semantics of the C language are of utmost interest.
>
>If this is all comp.lang.c discusses, then it's one boring newsgroup.

You don't have to read it if you find it boring, have you?

>The C language is a tool.  It is not an end, it is a means to an end.
>People use C to perform a task.  Talking about C's syntax and semantics
>is uninteresting to people who have real work to do.

Without mastering the syntax and semantics, you can't use C to do any kind
of real work.  When you buy a power drill, the instruction booklet doesn't
tell you how to use it to make a hole 6.5 mm in diameter and 15 mm deep
in a block of aluminium, does it?

>>As someone in this newsgroup once cleverly put: that one can describe
>>the theory of general relativity in English doesn't mean one ought to discuss
>>relativity in a newsgroup about the English language.
>
>Depends, what does the English language newsgroup suppose to cover about
>English?  I.e.  does it also cover old English (Shakespearian).  What if
>I was looking for a Shakespearian translation of general relativity?  What
>would you do, direct me to a physics newsgroup?  When was the last time
>you met a physicist who knows Shakespeare?

You continue to miss the point.  In such a case, you'll ask for the
old English equivalent of a few terms needed when talking about this topic,
you won't start a discussion on this topic, which is highly irrelevant to
your audience.
>
>>It's hardly surprising to find C lovers in a newsgroup dedicated solely to the C
>>language.
>
>Just curious, do you also love your fork or coffee cup (if you drink
>coffee)?  How about your shoes or cap?  All these things are tools.

The way to distinguish a good craftsman from a bad one is to observe
his attitude towards his tools.  The good one loves his tools.

>They
>are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.  Many people are new
>to C and would like to learn how to use it wisely in their field of
>interest.  Directing them to a newsgroup dedicated to that interest
>is not likely a good solution, since readers of that group might not
>know C.

If the readers of that group don't know C, there is a very high
probability that the readers of c.l.c don't know anything about his
field of interest.  In such a case, the problem has to be expressed in
general terms and not in specific ones, to a group which is likely to
know the solution and be interested in discussing it.  For example,
let's say that someone has just built a specialized interface for his PC
and wants to program it in C.  He can't simply ask: "how could I program
my interface to do this and that in C?", because nobody will know the
answer.  So, he'll have to ask "how do I do port programming in C and
how do I write an ISR in C?".  Since the answers are very platform
(and even compiler) specific, the right newsgroup would be one dedicated
to programming on the PC, e.g. comp.os.msdos.programmer.  The chances of
finding MSDOS programmers using C there are pretty high.  Yes, you will
find people who could answer this question in c.l.c, as well, but the
point is that people in c.l.c aren't interested in discussing about this
stuff.  The few who are, can be found in c.o.m.p, as well.

>And even if one or two know C, they are most likely not experts
>since they do not read comp.lang.c.  So the better solution would be
>for readers of comp.lang.c who have the same interest to answer that
>question.

See my argumentation above.  Those who have the same interest, will be
reading the specialized group, as well.

>Here are some advice to you people who believe all questions should
>be C questions.
>
>1.  Always append "in C" to the question being asked.  For instance,
>    "What is the best algorithm to do matrix inversion?"
>    This should be translated to:
>    "What is the best algorithm to do matrix inversion in C?"

Is this a troll or are you a genuine idiot?

>You can flame the article author or direct them to a general algorithms
>newsgroup.  But do you know for a fact that they have a solution?  And
>if you do, see #2...

Who cares?  If you know the algorithm but can't implement it in C, you
should either learn C or find another job/hobby.  c.l.c is _definitely_
not the place for discussing matrix inversion algorithms, which are
entirely language independent.

>2.  If you know for a fact that another newsgroup has the answers the
>author is looking for, be polite and direct them to that group.  For
>instance:  "You can find the answer to your question in the algorithms
>FAQ.  You can get it from comp.algorithms.  You'll probably get better
>answers from that group than this one.  Good luck!"
>
>Don't say:  "You stupid piece of shit.  Don't you know this is a
>newsgroup about the C language.  Don't you have anything better to
>do than poop all over this fine newsgroup?  Now get on your knees
>and say 'Hail the C language!' 50 times."

If you'll read this newsgroup for a while, you'll see that the most
variant is the rule and the second is the exception.

>Yes, you can flame the author.

The point here is that everybody has his own definition for "flaming".
Some people consider being sent to the appropriate newsgroup or to the FAQ
as a flame and not as the best kind of help they could get in that
newsgroup.

>But would it really help?  Sure you
>get to release some anger, but it would just start a flame war.  And
>you probably dispise that more than inappropriate questions.  See #3.
>
>3.  If you do not know the answer or where to direct the author of the
>article, simply hit 'n' or 'space bar' to go to the next article.
>It would reduce bandwidth and save us all a headache.
>
>This is not directed to just Kazimir, but to all those who don't
>know how to interact with other people.  Remember when you were
>young.  Didn't your teachers ever put you in a group for a
>discussion?  And there's always someone that comes by and asks a
>question that has nothing to do with the discussion?  You didn't
>blow up and jumpped all over that person did you?  You just directed
>the person elsewhere and continued your discussion.  That's politeness.
>I for one would like to see more of that in this newsgroup.  I use
>C a lot and would like to discuss it in a group where it is enjoyable
>to have open discussions.  And not have hot headded teenagers flaming
>anyone that's not familiar.  Let's all try and keep our minds open.

One question: how many questions posted to this newsgroup have you
(correctly) answered, to feel entitled to teach other people, who spend
quite a lot of their time helping people, how to behave and what questions
to answer and how to answer them?  Try to actually do this kind of "job"
for a while, your only reward for your time and effort being an occasional
flame, and you might understand Kazimir's points.  I spent hundreds of
hours reading c.l.c and I posted thousands of answers and corrections
to wrong or incomplete answers and I definitely agree with him and others.

Moral: if you aren't an active contributor to the newsgroup, you have no
business trying to impose your views to those who are.  You won't succeed,
anyway, the net result being a waste of time and bandwidth.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: [e-mail]
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland